march 2003
pages: 1 | 2


Fifteen-year-old Minnie Goetze is dealing with the usual teenage bullshit: navigating her first crush, dabbling in drugs, becoming sexually involved with her mother's boyfriend and falling in love with a girl who pimps her for heroin.
    Been there, done that! Minnie is a fictional character. She's also the most realistic adolescent you're likely to meet in any media anytime soon. She's the protagonist of A Diary of a Teenage Girl and, to a certain extent, the alter ego — of illustrator Phoebe Gloeckner.

Some important things to know about Gloeckner and her work:

    - Like Minnie, Gloeckner grew up in San Francisco in the '70s. She was artistically talented but academically unmotivated. She was expelled from several private schools but received encouragement from R. Crumb, who was one of her mother's friends.
    - Much of what happens to Minnie in Diary actually happened to Gloeckner, but Gloeckner refuses to call the book autobiography (she prefers the term "totally fictional.")
    - Gloeckner's previous book, A Girl's Life, told Minnie's story entirely in images, many of them sexually explicit. Some of that material was seized at the borders of Britain and France as child pornography.
    - Diary is mostly text punctuated by illustration, but it's no less frank. (One diary entry about Minnie's with Monroe, her mother's boyfriend: I need sex. I really want to get laid right now — in fact, any time — the desire is insatiable. I don’t know if I’ve made that clear — I really like getting fucked.)

Yet beneath the Jerry Springer framework is a warm, realistic core: Minnie's feelings of worthlessness and misguided sexual choices transcend period, setting and gender. She inhabits parallel worlds of romantic naivete and jaded self-destructiveness; they're places we've all been and continue to fall back into, long after we’re supposed to know better. It's the most honest depiction of sexuality in a long, long time; as a meditation on adolescence, it picks up a literary ball that's been only fitfully carried after Salinger.
    In this interview, Gloeckner — who holds a master's degree in medical illustration; her other work includes illustrations for The Research Guide to Bodily Fluids — talks about child pornography, her unusual literary inspirations and her definition of autobiography.
— Michael Martin


In creating this book, did you adapt your actual teenage diaries?
The basis for the book was the diaries I wrote a long time ago, when I was a teenager. In making the book, of course I used the diaries, but if you read them all, they wouldn't make any sense. There are a million characters you've never heard of, and everything's out of order. I incorporated much of it word for word, but then I had to write back into it to create a story.

So is your work autobiographical?
Well, you see, I have a problem with knowing what truth is. I never call my stuff "autobiographical," because I think "autobiographical" implies that something is true. But to me, all that term implies is that it has the point of view of the author. I don't think there really is any such thing as truth. It's all our own interpretation. Memory changes; you create your own mythology, because things are reduced to symbol over time.

So even if many of the things that happen to Minnie happened to you, just because your description of events may not reflect the way the other characters remember them, it's not autobiography?
No, I guess . . . it seems more complex to me than that. I mean, think of anything you recall. You have a point of view; you're standing in a certain spot. You can hear everything, but you don't remember everything — you remember what's important to you in the conversation. So your point of view is really rather limited. You're not noticing everything else around you.

It always seems to people that I'm avoiding saying, "It's autobiographical," but I really do believe that human beings make stories and they make themselves. If I told you the same story twelve years ago, I could have emphasized something different. The importance changes, the meaning of things shifts over time. Also, I think all art is autobiographical. Every endeavor is full of impressions of ourselves.

Did you start drawing as therapy?
No. I think every kid draws. Usually, you start drawing before you write. I just really liked comics.
The comic that really inspired me to do comics was the first Twisted Sisters. It was just a little seventy-five-cent comic book from the '70s, done by two cartoonists, Diane Newman and Aline Kaminsky. It had just two stories in it, and one of them was about the life of a teenage girl. When I read that, I related to it. I was already writing these diaries, but then I thought, "Well, maybe I should try to draw stories." I always drew; that was one of the things I could do. I didn't have any notion of what therapy was. When you're a kid, it means nothing to you, I think.

So you weren't doing it as an outlet?
Well, yeah. But it was the same way that little kids play superheroes. They wish they could fly in the air and have big muscles. That doesn't sound like an expression of emotion, but it is. Likewise, I didn't say, "I'm going to do this as an outlet;" I was just trying to draw well.

Do teenage girls contact you about your work?
There have been a few, and I really wish there were more. When I was writing the book, I kept holding in my heart a vision of a teenage girl who would be reading it. But I keep reading this in reviews: "Oh, it would be great if teenagers could read this book, but in this society at this time, it's never going to happen." So, unfortunately, it's another case of "a teenager can experience this, but they can't read about it."

I want to ask you about Minnie's relationship with her mother's boyfriend. Do you consider Minnie a victim of sexual abuse? According to law, she might be, because she's fifteen and Monroe's thirty-five, but at the same time you show how Minnie is making this very conscious, aggressive — we might even say empowered — decision to sleep with him.
Yes, she is, at the time. The only thing missing from that equation is the fact that it's not really an informed choice. She's very insecure. I think Minnie really believes that if she doesn't sleep with him, no one will ever sleep with her. She really feels like, "Wow, what a stroke of luck. I feel ugly and weird, this could be my only chance." So she's making the choice to do this, but her thinking is off. It's not empowered.

On the other hand, I'm not really saying outright that it's child abuse, because I don't think that that was his intent. Monroe isn't a very conscious individual himself.

pages: 1 | 2: Why the movie version of Diary must include real sex


© 2003 Michael Martin and Nerve.com.

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NOTE: this is an archived page and will not be updated.
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(January 2010)